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Nancy voicing questions…

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B777Captain

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Nancy voicing questions…

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 5:52 pm

Hi Gang…

I find myself mostly playing the Nancy when enjoying HW but…. I was wondering how you all adjust the voicing, if you do at all, on this monster sample set?

I do recall reading a few posts here and there about increasing some volume etc, to the Positiv but I’m wondering what those have done for the Great manual.

I would actually prefer just a little more “bite” to the reeds so they stand out a little bit more in the full tutti finale. I listen quite a bit to the Notre Dame in Paris recordings and am trying to replicate that sound a bit more in a full tutti.

Thanks for any suggestions and discussion on how best to voice the Nancy….

Pat
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mnailor

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 8:09 pm

A couple of simple things to try and listen to see if they help:

Reduce GO volume to 90 or 85% on all perspectives since the Montre 8 is very dominant. Leave RE, PO, BD, PD levels at 100.

Set the Front perspective level to 0% and make the Middle level the highest -- higher than Close. I think Middle captures more fire in the chorus reeds, while Front is too dull. I actually route Front and Rear to my rear speakers and use Close and Middle as my front ranks.

I also raised the brightness 3 dB on all Positif ranks in Rank routing.

You can also route some chorus reeds to brighter speakers if yours aren't all the same.
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B777Captain

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostTue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 pm

Thank you MNailor!

I believe it was you whose post I read earlier regarding some adjustments to Nancy.
I will try your suggestions and let you know!

Pat
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mdyde

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostWed Feb 08, 2023 4:59 am

[Topic moved here.]
Best regards, Martin.
Hauptwerk software designer/developer, Milan Digital Audio.
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mnailor

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostFri Feb 10, 2023 2:05 pm

Pat,

I spent some more time on Nancy today, playing each division on Close only, Front only, and Middle only to compare. If you save the three settings 100 0 0 0, 0 100 0 0, and 0 0 100 0, it's quick to switch back and forth with one touch.

I ended up raising the Positif overall brightness in Rank voicing to 6 dB because it was dead-sounding in all perspectives.

My perspective levels ended up at 20 Close, 100 Front, 100 Middle, 20 Rear. 100 on all division/perspective levels. First three perspectives routed to front speakers.

I still prefer to truncate releases, to 500 ms on Close, 3000 ms on Front and Middle, full releases on Rear, because the short note releases seem too long and loud to me.

This all depends on your speakers and preferences, but +6 dB brightness on all Positif ranks makes a big difference.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostMon Feb 13, 2023 11:42 pm

mnailor wrote:
Pat,

I spent some more time on Nancy today, playing each division on Close only, Front only, and Middle only to compare. If you save the three settings 100 0 0 0, 0 100 0 0, and 0 0 100 0, it's quick to switch back and forth with one touch.

REPLY: mnailor, I like this idea and have set up 3 pistons to do just this… almost on the fly vs having to go into the page each time. Thank you!!!
************
I ended up raising the Positif overall brightness in Rank voicing to 6 dB because it was dead-sounding in all perspectives.

REPLY: How do you raise the overall brightness in a “Rank Voicing”? Is this done all at once somehow or would I do it individuallyx4 perspectives (laboriously)? Would you be so kind as to tell me which menu function to select for this one please?
***********

Thanks again mnailor

Pat




My perspective levels ended up at 20 Close, 100 Front, 100 Middle, 20 Rear. 100 on all division/perspective levels. First three perspectives routed to front speakers.

I still prefer to truncate releases, to 500 ms on Close, 3000 ms on Front and Middle, full releases on Rear, because the short note releases seem too long and loud to me.

This all depends on your speakers and preferences, but +6 dB brightness on all Positif ranks makes a big difference.
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mnailor

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostTue Feb 14, 2023 5:22 am

Under Organ settings | Rank voicing (and more words), you first select all the Positif ranks in the Close perspective. On Windows, that means click on the first rank, hold the shift key down and click the last rank. That selects (shades) all the Positif ranks.

In the dropdown menu for the parameter to be modified, on the right side of the Rank voicing window, choose the one that says

All perspectives: overall: brightness (dB).

Then move the left hand master slider (all notes) up to 6 dB.

Repeat that for Front, Middle, and Rear Positif ranks. It's only laborious if you don't use shift+click to select multiple ranks.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostTue Feb 14, 2023 8:19 am

I generally agree with Mnailor's voicing suggestions for Nancy, but I feel that the Recit also needs a boost. With no adjustments, it seems too weak on my set up, so I have increased the volume and brightness of that division as well.

Generally, I make voicing/leveling adjustments to any sample set by playing a range of literature. This is a bit easier when playing a Cavaillé-Coll instrument, because of his pervasive presence and influence on French Romantic composers. However, I have found this approach is helpful no matter what the pedigree of the instrument.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostWed Feb 15, 2023 3:22 pm

It's interesting how we can perceive big differences about the balance between, or brightness of, divisions on the same sampleset. There've been similar discussions over the years about several, including Hereford, Salisbury, Metz,...

I suppose everone sets their audio up to work well on a favorite organ, and then tries to make other organs fit. I know my audio is configured to make Caen Surround sound great to me, after which many SP organs sound good without any voicing effort.

But I have to work at it, especially on inter-division balance, on organs from LA, PG, MDA, Evensong, SO, and OAM because of my starting point.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostFri Feb 17, 2023 3:38 pm

MNailor….

Thank you again for the instructions on adjusting volume/brightness. Very much appreciated!!

May I ask: I think of the Positiv division to be like the “accompaniment” on an organ… I use the Nancy having the Grande Orgue keyboard as the second one and the Positiv as the bottom keyboard. I was under the impression that the “accompaniment” division would be quieter since it didn’t want to be too overbearing of the Grande division. Am I wrong in that assumption? I do not have any formal training in organ playing, its pure passion so I’m not as well versed as many of you in things like this.

Pat
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mnailor

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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostFri Feb 17, 2023 4:32 pm

Nancy has some neobaroque mods, so its easier to talk about original C-C organs from 1850 onward.

A book from 1917 available from Wayne Leupold, Wallace Goodrich's "The Organ in France", gives some useful views of the tonal differences between 19th C French and American organs and how to adjust registrations. See also the two Rollin Smith books on interpreting Cesar Franck.

C-C organs, until near the end of the century, tended to have a nicer balance between the foundation flues (fonds) than we're used to, both between families and across divisions. Instead of loud Diapasons and Clarabellas with a dominating Great, C-C had the four flue families closer in level to each other, blending into a characteristic warm sound where no single voice stands out much, though the Bourdon does tend to vanish below the Gambe, Montre, and Flute Harmonique. You can hear this blend on Caen, St. Omer, and Oloron-St-Marie by drawing all the 8' fonds (no celestes) and coupling the manuals together.

The Positif fonds in Franck's St. Clotilde C-C organ were almost as loud as the GO. The Positif was expected to hold its own as a complete second chorus, both plein jeu and grand jeu. Later in the century, toward 1890 - 1900, the Positif weakens more toward an accompanying manual like our Choir division in some organs, but much French symphonic music still expected the Positif to be a complete second GO, not overwhelmed by the Recit. By 1902-3, you can hear a weak, Choir-like Positif on Notre Dame de Metz original without extension stops, by Mutin, C-C's successor firm.

When you add the Pos Anches (trumpets and sometimes upperwork) after the Recit Anches, the expectation was a considerable boost in sound and excitement, short of the GO Anches, but not just a faint reinforcement of the Recit. I don't really think later composers like Widor, Gigout, Guilmant, and Vierne asked for a weak Positif as mainly an accompaniment, but I can only back that opinion up for Franck.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostSat Feb 18, 2023 5:12 pm

Hello, regarding the perspective between the keyboards, I think Johann Vexo's videos on youtube on the 'actual' (it is being oververhauled) organ can give an answer. I used them to 'benchmark' a few settings.
On voicing, I have gone thru the same path (truncate release, brightness and volume) as described above ... with different numbers but that will vary depending on each audio system.
Finally, there is one thing I could not fix without jeopardizing the church acoustic (which is nice) is the bell artifacts, especially on the positive (when playing staccato). It is a bit sad for a set of this price but this is it. Unless someone has found a fix ...
This set is so far the one which I have found the most difficult to 'voice' ...
Tks.
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostWed Feb 22, 2023 4:31 pm

CyrilCouton:

Can you please put the link to the youtube to Johann Vexo’s video about the Nancy voicing please?

Thank you!

Pat
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostThu Feb 23, 2023 7:23 am

Here it is...
http://www.orgues-cathedrale-nancy.fr/en/


On the bottom left there is a tiny link for all videos. 'discover all our videos'. They are very nice.
I hope you will enjoy them.
For all organ sets I have I try to use live videos of the actual organ to voice them.

This guy is also assistant organist on the chancel organ in ND de Paris
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Re: Nancy voicing questions…

PostSat May 20, 2023 4:18 pm

MNailor…

Mark you mentioned about adjusting the db for PO and RC by a numbered level….

When I go to that page and adjust the volume/brightness for the two divisions, I don’t see a “number” anywhere that I can adjust “to”.

I’ve looked and looked and don’t see numbers on that page, just a scale to which after moving the master slider, it adjusts, but I see no numbers.

Can you assist me here on this one please?

Thank you.

Pat
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